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Kalle Lasn has been trying to jam consumer culture for decades. Now he thinks that was only the beginning. Subscribe to our channel! http://goo.gl/0bsAjO Sean talks with the Adbusters founder about advertising, culture jamming, meme warfare, surveillance capitalism, and why he believes the old left-right political script is dead. Lasn argues that consumer culture is not just shallow or manipulative but part of a system pushing us toward collapse. His answer is bigger than protest and weirder than reform. He wants a cultural revolution that starts with new ideas, new language, and maybe an entirely new politics. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Kalle Lasn (@KalleLasn) 1:19 The Adbusters origin story 5:57 Advertising as a tool for change 14:29 Is consumerism broken? 30:34 Mimetic warfare 40:29 What would make the next Occupy movement work? We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Vox.com is a news website that helps you cut through the noise and understand what's really driving the events in the headlines. Check out http://www.vox.com. Watch our full video catalog: http://goo.gl/IZONyE Follow Vox on Facebook: http://goo.gl/U2g06o Or Twitter: http://goo.gl/XFrZ5H